Should some banned weapons that relies on gimmicks based on alt-fire (i.e. Soda Popper and Cow Mangler 5000) be restricted instead?

So, let's assume a weapon is banned because of a certain gimmick toggled by the alt-fire. If we make a rule that makes the said weapon be used but cannot use the alt-fire (as in, unbind the button if using the weapon or being punished for using the button), would it be a good idea to make it as a rule? It could create some variety in gameplay whilist not making it too broken (Soda Popper for being a Scattergun better suited for burst damage and the Cow Mangler being a situational sidegrade to stock). What do y'all think of this?

That’s a bit gimmicky, right?

“Don’t press this.”

I can picture people breaking this rule the time. Just feels weird.

The Cow Mangler not needing ammo is a mediocre buff unless you encounter an engi. You just switch off of it if you encounter one.

The Soda Popper just isn’t good for 6’s. You need sustained fire as a scout. Even if the DPS of the soda popper is comparable, you get more flexibility with the scattergun by having 6 rounds.

I see. I remember asking this in a Competitive TF2 Discord server years ago and the best I've got is "it's kinda gimmicky but Europeans might like it".

Soda popper has better sustained dps. It can fire 4 shots faster than the stock can. Same for 5 and 6 shots. The only threshold stock reaches faster is 3 shots.

If you ban the part of the weapon that makes it good people just won’t use it

The thing is, I really hope the cow mangler stays banned because it just looks ugly and doesn't add anything to the game.

I know this. That doesn’t matter though.

In a 6v6 environment you aren’t going to be able to hold W as a scout and stay in players faces to get this on-paper value out of the soda popper. You will get mulched.

Instead,

You need to take chunks out of your enemy when the opportunities arise, ducking and weaving out of the fight. The soda popper forces you to reload every 2 rounds. Even with the reload speed, that time renders you unable to capitalize on the situations in front of you.

The best scouts in the game don’t even run the soda popper in pubs. The speed at which you can 2-tap someone is not as valuable as you think.

Heres a relevant example: the original version of the shortstop.

The old shortstop had the best of all worlds- a 4 shot clip, fast firing speed, enhanced accuracy at mid-range, and, previously, the same reload speed as a pistol. If you had good aim, it was straight up busted, hence the nerf. It made mediocre scouts even better, and good scouts downright unfair.

The reload speed had to be nerfed because you weren’t punished for holding M1.

If competitive was all about “what’s possible”, you’d see every solder running the bazooka and flying around the map. You only see a few people running the bazooka because it’s not as reliable as the regular rocket launcher.

Reliability is king.

Soda popper even with no m2 is better than scattergun for 2 reasons: the first is simply the high upfront burst damage. The second is a little bit more difficult to say eloquently; with scattergun you must divide your attention between simultaneously dodging and shooting, with soda popper you can shoot 2 shots in 0,25 seconds and then spend the reload time focusing your full attention on dodging (you don't even have to face the enemy, enabling movement that would lower your dps with stock). So it's easier to take less damage with Soda popper while maintaining high dps.

>You need to take chunks out of your enemy when the opportunities arise, ducking and weaving out of the fight. The soda popper forces you to reload every 2 rounds.

This is basically what's happening there.

I think the reason they don't run soda popper in pubs is because the muscle memory is different, and they don't wanna bother practicing a banned weapon because they are probably going to roll either way.

This is a good point.

Although, the higher burst damage, doing something like \~200dmg in ideal conditions? How often do those ideal conditions arise as a scout?

The best scouts are never fighting in ideal conditions.

The soda popper works well in a vacuum, or against weaker players. Even without the M2.

But again, I ask- why do you never see top tier players using the soda popper in pubs?

I know, this is a poor way to form an argument. Pure conjecture. I recognize that. Bear with me here.

But when you see players like b4nny, habib, soapy, lolguy, botmode, Logan, etc… when you see them streaming on twitch, they never use the soda popper when they play scout in a pub.

I play an average of about 2-3 hours of tf2 every day. East coast USA. Both casual servers and about 7-8 different community servers (of all gamemodes, all times of day.)

I honestly cannot say the last time I saw a scout using the soda popper and having an impact on the game. I’m not making this up for a Reddit comment- I never see soda popper scouts.

If the soda popper is good and flexible as these arguments imply, you would see more players using it. Like the Loch n Load, which has always been incredibly good from its projectile speed alone. Popular with pub and competitive players. (right up until RGL banned it)

There’s something missing here.

Soda popper has been banned since forever in many leagues and comp players don't want to grind weapons they're not gonna use in matches. For others (like me) it could be sunk cost fallacy into having a strange scattergun since forever.

H8er

Yes