Martial expectations

Hi all,

Seeing yet another post about how martials are boring with no choice, I got curious as a game designer: as a player, what do you want the martial classes (or maybe just the fighter) to do?

Some examples that come to my mind are: trip-grapple-disarm etc (a debuff), attack all around (a damage multiplier), push/pull opponents (battlefield control), take a hit in place of your ally (again, control/effectively heal) etc. Anything you’d like to add?

Additionally, would you like those abilities to be accessible unconditionally, or limited? Like through feats, class features, subclasses, weapon types or magic weapons?

Also, I'd like to focus the discussion on what you the player (or the GM) want, not what some 3rd party supplement or such offers.

I don't think martials are boring, they just need more options besides "have access to spells" or "more feats". Some alternative features Thasa style would be great.

Unpopular opinion but i think martials are fine, the issue is the full spell caster are too strong doing crazy broken things at high level

I want them to have superhuman abilities, leap buildings, shake the ground with their strikes, be as fast as a bullet, etc. I don't want realism in my martials, I want them to match the fantasy of magic wizards have.

I would change rogue levels to be less front or end-loaded. The former isn't too much of an issue but for many subclasses there are class defining features locked down to high level campaigns, which (imo) doesn't feel rewarding or invoke much sense of character growth. I would rather just shift the base class + all subclasses in this way.

Rangers should be allowed to exploit more environmental hazards and set traps. Give them RAW features to build tripwire, pit traps, and/or weighted nets rather than one-off qualities of a common or magical item. If the class fantasy is about preparedness then it seems like a logical development.

battle maneuvers expansion thats what they need.

the overlord anime (which is somewhat based on dnd) did it before wotc

If I were redesigning the level progression from the ground up, I'd consider adding an extra level before 7th, 8th, and 9th-level spells, shifting other features around, so that 9th-level spells are the proper capstone, and martial capstones match that power.

From these types of threads I think you largely find three groups emerge:

1) Martials are more or less fine as is, or could use some tweaks to numbers and other passives

2) Martials should have more combat options available / Battlemaster features should be baseline for Martial classes

3) Martials should have superhuman, fantastical abilities that let them do things like leap mountains and cleave castles in half

Part of the problem is that there is a pretty wide array of thoughts as to what a Martial should actually be, particularly at high level. And the gulf between these points of view can be extremely wide.

I want martials to have more oomph in general I guess, especially at level 5+

I have my own vision of what I would make martials be like if I were designing them, e.g. more distinguished martial archetypes, more cinematic power fantasies. Opt-in complexity turn-to-turn.

But that's me speaking as a game designer. Not me as a player.

As a player I want to be not only delighted, but also surprised - meaning the game designer should give me what I like, when even I don't know what I would want.

You don't see video game developers going around and asking people, "Would you rather have a beefy character that also has long range options, or maybe a complex high-mobility character?" They have a vision informed by their playerbase insight and design philosophy, and they execute on it. And if they're skilled at their job, they'll make something the players like.

Players provide valuable feedback. But players are not game designers, and game designers should not rely on players to design the game for them.

I think high-level martials shouldn't be constrained by realistic size limits. Many features only work on Large or smaller creatures, or creatures up to one size larger than the PC, making them ineffective against larger creatures either entirely or without significant support. Any Tier 4 Barbarian should be able to Grapple an Ancient Dragon!

I totally agree with you. Some min maxers, specially in this sub, have some very toxic notions about martials. While is pretty clear that things get "worse" at higher levels(that most tables never play). And people kinda forget that we are playing a cooperative game. There is this notions that a build should be able to do all by itself without help and be good in any situation.

I want martials to have their own dedicated maneuver system, that they can use with a resource that regens every turn. So basically, I want the dnd next playtest maneuvers xD

A few ideas.
- More Fighting Styles, perhaps access to advanced fighting styles
- More feats. Every pure martial class should get +3 feats, even Paladin and Ranger should be +2
- Better martial feats. It's way too limited at the moment, especially when you have mandatory feats for certain methods of fighting, but practically zero support for others. You can hardly call the martial/caster divide even close to fixed when nearly half the weapons in the game are nearly useless.
- On that note, expand the Weapon Mastery system a bit.

I want abilities that reflect what casters can do at high level.

I want martials to be one man armies. Let them run across water and on clouds. Let them level castle walls with a punch. Cause earth quakes with a stomp.

Take inspiration from Beowulf, Gilgamesh, Hercules, wuxia, and yes, even anime.

I’d like to see martials get more weapons and weapon masteries and maybe some type of advanced weapon mastery techniques like how spell slots scale. Perhaps I can now combine topple and cleave at higher levels in the same attack. Or sap and slow. Or do other interesting maneuvers adjacent moves. I’m actually of the opinion that I don’t want my high level martial character to be throwing buildings or breaking mountains in half with one blow.