Hello. Long time lurker, first time poster. But reading some of the takes of the martial/caster divide has made something occur to me. Essentially, something that has always stuck with me in terms of magic in D&D (all editions, but my game will always be 3.Xe) was Margaret Weis's introduction to the Pathfinder 1e edition of the Kobold Press book Deep Magic.

"All wizards must suffer."

And I find this quote striking. It's literally the first sentence in the book. And I think it's a very important one that is deeply applicable to the way we play today still in any system with magic.

For a long time the fighter has been associated with social grace. It literally used to be part of the class structure that you got a stronghold, and followers just for being a fighter. You were a practitioner of a noble art worthy of admiration from onlookers.

Conversely, magic users (with the exception of clerics) have long been associated with immense power at the cost of social capital. They get spell slots. They get more spells. Those spells are more versatile in effect than anything the fighter can do. But the fighter will always have a higher place on the social ladder.

I think about that quote in the context of D&D fiction (of which I am an avid reader) and fantasy fiction in general (of which I am even more of an avid reader). And one of the things I've noticed is that with the exception of stories in which the average character is some sort of practitioner of The Art, there is a social stigma to learning magic. Or a physical cost. Or an emotional cost.

Raistlin sacrificed his body, and eventually his life. Iggwilv compromised her morals endlessly to accrue more power by cavorting with demons. Elminster has essentially had to become a willing pawn for Mystra. Gale Dekkarios of Waterdeep, Volothamp Geddarm, Lareal Silverhand, Vajra Saffar and every Blackstaff of Waterdeep that preceded her, the Towers of High Sorcery, Dalamar the Dark, Fistandantilus, Par-Salian, Strahd von Zarovich, Azalin Rex, Vecna, Acerak, I could keep going, but I think you get my point. You can't throw a rock in a room full of wizards without hitting someone who made some sort of grand sacrifice (or eager sacrifice of something that is traditionally valued and cursed for their trouble) for their power.

And I kind of wonder if the proliferation of common magic in most games has muddied the waters a bit in terms of the divide between martials and casters. I think it might be one of the reasons that it has become so prevalent, at least at my table.

Maybe magic should go back to being somewhat rare and scary...

Idk. This is just some rambling I done did at zero-dark-thirty waiting for my meds to kick in before bed.

Just live in Thay and be a red wizard.

Szass Tam seems to be on top of the social ladder if anything

Yeah, but Thay is pretty widely regarded as a bad place to be. But that's a good point. And one I didn't consider.

I've been doing a sort of long-con thing with my group where the past three campaigns have been relatively high fantasy with abundant magic, my setting is bursting at the seams with latent arcana. Next campaign I'm dropping them in a hermit kingdom where nobody except the ruling class practices any form of magic and those who do practice it are viewed as suspicious/terrifying.

People are just all unimaginative on martial.

And all martial class suffered for it.

That sounds cool as hell! My most persistent campaign setting has been a world where at one time sorcerer-kings ruled the land from stop great stone trees. They came into conflict with one another and eventually created magic nukes. And now it's a green post-apocalyptic world with tiny pockets of civilization. And one of the defining features of the setting is the places in the world where arcane magic is just plain weird. Sometimes it's easier. Sometimes it's harder. Sometimes it doesn't work. Sometimes it doesn't work until you leave the weird zone where it all goes off at once. Sometimes spells are inverted. It's fun.

Wizards have spells, they are the party member that can possibly most influence an encounter. The warriors job should be to enable them, and the rogue to maneuver into a sneak position etc. This is why the differences between classes are important, Role playing. Giving martials "magical" abilities because they are boring otherwise takes away from the true dynamic of TT RPGs. Paladins and Rangers bridge this Gap, but they were originally intended to require rigid conduct, bravery and sacrifice by the player. This has been lost a little in modern editions. Clerics have encroached too much on the arcane domain, their abilities with healing, undead and armour should mean they don't reach the same level of power as pure casters. Clerics sub classes with fireball and sorcerors with healing just makes core classes redundant. Old man rant over.

Agreed. Fighter is there because the wizard needs ten rounds to cast her big spells. And the wizard is made of tissue paper and glass. Bring back d4 hit dice.

Yes, that would be a great game.

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yes, the "be creative" argument, all martials have to play "Dm may I" while casters just do what's written being able to plan ahead 10 sessions cuz they know DM won't contest any of their bullshit.

The thing with magic is basically unlimited power with the only caveat being “how do I cast this spell?” and “what does it cost?”

Because of this magic can be as world changing as it can be because it’s accepted it will come at a high cost like Wish.

Meanwhile martials really just have no way to match that world changing power beside also using magic, all roads just come back to magic.

There’s no avenue that avoids magic which can make the “using nothing but your grit and skill” kind of feel less impactful since it’ll still require magic in some form.

I kind of like how the Project Moon games gave avenues of marital power that anyone could achieve with just skill and training like Rend Space.

Such legendary and precise swordmenship that a person can literally divide actual space in half by swinging a sword like Vergil from Devil May Cry.

You have to be the equivalent of a lvl 20 Wizard to do this and even a War Veteran of World War 5 from this franchise was only able to do it ONCE at death’s door.

It be cool if magic AND martial prowess had the same level of sacrifice to achieve such power.

Thanks, but I was already able to find the path.